Hey Paul,
On my copy of Mystic that I am running on my "lab" computer watching
the behaviour of several BBS softwares I have noticed something quite disturbing that Marc Lewis (Waldo's place) on fido has also confirmed
to me.
When running MUTIL to pack the message bases after purge it renumbers everything from 1 going on.
Most NNTP readers keep their own last read pointers not expecitng the servers to renumber the records. When you run MUTLI to pack/purge it resequences everthing from 1 on and throws the last read count off.
I foudn this as a user of my system and I tested the NNTP access
after I was working my spam filters and purged about 100 messages out
of a group that stored 10,000 messages. WHen the new messages came in,
the NNTP read. It took about 100 new messages before the news readers started downloading messages again and it ignored the 100 previous messages received.
This behaviour is also happening with HPT's Purge utiltiy as well as
when you Pack the message base to remove dead space it renumbers the
whole shabang.
Other message base utilities, like fastecho's feutils, will remove the dead space without renumbering or give you the option to renumber or
not. This could be an option base by base to renumber or not. But by allowing NNTP access we should not force the base to renumber as it
breaks some users NNTP clients. Mainly the more mainstream ones like Thunderbird, Postbox or Agent. None of them use the BBS's last read counters but the last number message that was downloaded.
Mark Lewis did confirm that this is standard in the world of NNTP.
On 09/21/16, Hawke said the following...
Hey Paul,
On my copy of Mystic that I am running on my "lab" computer watching the behaviour of several BBS softwares I have noticed something quite disturbing that Marc Lewis (Waldo's place) on fido has also confirmed to me.
Thunderbird, Postbox or Agent. None of them use the BBS's last read counters but the last number message that was downloaded.
Mark Lewis did confirm that this is standard in the world of NNTP.
You have to remember that Mystic and the JAM message base are first and foremost, BBSes and for BBSes. The addition of NNTP was a hack at best with a means to add functionality and access to the BBS-Style message bases. This does not mean that the Mystic or JAM message bases are lacking in any way. It seems to me, if NNTP is your primary focus, then
it might be best to run a native NNTP server. A person should not use a hammer as a screwdriver, and expect the same results as a screwdriver.
Yes, this is how MUTIL Message pack works. As a BBS sysop, I don't
like
having gaps in message numbering.
Maybe Message Pack is not the right option for you if you want to use
nntp.
So basically, it's behaving exactly as expected.
You have to remember that Mystic and the JAM message base are
first and foremost, BBSes and for BBSes. The addition of NNTP was
a hack at best with a means to add functionality and access to the BBS-Style message bases. This does not mean that the Mystic or JAM
message bases are lacking in any way. It seems to me, if NNTP is
your primary focus, then it might be best to run a native NNTP
server. A person should not use a hammer as a screwdriver, and
expect the same results as a screwdriver.
Thanks Hawke and Gryphon for your comments. Interesting to read all of
the above. I tend to agree with Gryphon that the NNTP side of Mystic
may not be what you want to run with Hawke, if that numbering is a
concern for you. But as Gryphon points out first and foremost Mystic
is a BBS platform with NNTP functionality added for access to JAM
bases.
g00r00 may well wish to comment in the future on this, but it is what
it is, and if it's not meeting your needs Hawke then a native NNTP
server with all that comes with it e.g. INN , may be a better option
for you?
Thanks for the feedback and comments guys.
Best, Paul
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A31 (Windows)
* Origin: Agency BBS | telnet://agency.bbs.geek.nz (21:1/101)
soon (hopefully soon) G00R00 will come back to amaze us all... but I
don't see having every utility under one umbrella as a bad thing, but
why reinvent the wheel when there are other utilties out there that
are compatible with mystic and add to it strenghts not take away from them. Right now G00R00 is the single point of development... and
concern for you. But as Gryphon points out first and foremost Mystic is a BBS platform with NNTP functionality added for access to JAM bases.
jamNNTPD is replacing a lot of the old BBS's in Europe, where in the non-English speaking world, the users still participate. I would like
to see Mystic become a solid platform... NNTP is absolutely needed...
If we make alternative ways for people to access Mystic other than
telnet, then we can really get the Mystic Mothership off the ground. In
g00r00 may well wish to comment in the future on this, but it is what it is, and if it's not meeting your needs Hawke then a native NNTP server with all that comes with it e.g. INN , may be a better option for you?
I'm already looking at JAMNNTPD as a possibiltiy. I've never said I
don't like Mystic... in fact I'm -very- fond of it. But it is still
But the one thing I liked most about mystic is how fast G00R00 can crank out quality code... there's absoultely no other program out there, that
I know of, that has came so far in so little time. Yeah... I'm a fan.
Because a key appeal of Mystic is to offer everything you need for
a FTN system BBS/Mailer/Tosser etc. without having the need to
phaff about with all the other interdependent 3rd party software..
Mystic makes it simple and keeping it simple, as you know around
here, is what it's all about ;-)
I never said you didn't like Mystic, rather just suggesting use
something else that suits your needs... and it looks like you are.
So all good.
I have see a lot of very talented good dev work done over the last
few years I have been active in the Mystic world. I doff my cap to
g00r00 also for all that has been added etc. over the last couple
of releases from 1.10 to 1.11 and now onto 1.12 .. it's amazing
stuff.
Hello Gryphon!
* In a message originally to Hawke, Gryphon said:
Yes, this is how MUTIL Message pack works. As a BBS sysop, I don't like
having gaps in message numbering.
That's how Mutil does work, but it also does a few other things, some
nice some not so nice that aren't exactly standard. For instance it forces word wrap when it tosses messages that come from other systems
that do not embed the CR/LF in it. That's a nice thing to do but most other systems including Golded will word wrap on the fly... which is
nice if you want to use something more than 80 columns.
Maybe Message Pack is not the right option for you if you want to use nntp.
I'm now using RAMSG that comes with the last version of RA... it packs
as JAM was intended to be packed (after all it was written by the
authors who designed the JAM message base).
Since I have been packing the message bases with it my NNTP reader problems have resolved. Another bonus is that it rebuilds and repairs
the JAM base's index files when needed. MUTIL has no repair
capability and if you have something go south with a JAM base it can detect and fix it. I had a very large JAMbase under mystic that got corrupted and I never knew it got corrupted. Once RAMSG rebuilt and reindexed everything my matrix message reader started working again on
the mystic side. I don't know what happened to the base but I only
lost 2 corrupted messages when it was repaired... which is an
acceptable loss on the large rec.food.cooking list that my users (I
have foodied) like.
So basically, it's behaving exactly as expected.
No... it's not... older legacy sorgwares like JAMNNTPD and RA Itself (where JAM was born) do not renumber the messages when you pack.
Fastecho and GECHO (tossers that had input from the developers of jam)
did not renumber. You can force Ramsg, and fastecho/gecho's
maintainance programs to renumber but the JAM base is designed to literally have a very high message number. I've had them numbered in
the millions on some newsgroups.
You have to remember that Mystic and the JAM message base are
first and foremost, BBSes and for BBSes. The addition of NNTP was
a hack at best with a means to add functionality and access to the BBS-Style message bases. This does not mean that the Mystic or JAM message bases are lacking in any way. It seems to me, if NNTP is
your primary focus, then it might be best to run a native NNTP
server. A person should not use a hammer as a screwdriver, and
expect the same results as a screwdriver.
Actually I've been around for 30+ years... I have alpha and betatested Remoteaccess... and I can assure you that it was one of the first
systems out there that handled usenet. The JAM message base is not exclusive to Mystic... I have all the technical specs for it somwehere around here. We are actually using the right tools.. if you want to
truly see what NNTP can do try loading up a copy of JAMNNTPD it can
sit right on top of your mystic installation.
I believe that Mystic will eventually get where it needs to be. It's
got a great programmer... and it has a lot of awesome people working
on it.
Unfortunately, it is a piece of software that is still very much an Alpha... not even a Beta. The developer is brilliant and cranks out
bug fixes, new features and new code faster than what is humanly
possible. We are his test base and there are already some things to
be fixed upon his return.
If you really want to get an honest assessment of why Mystic isn't
popular in Zone 2 ask Bjorn Felten. He is very much in tune with the
JAM message base, FTS standards and can give G00R00 a lot of good
pointers on things that would make mystic better. He's been around continuously with mystic. He runs JAMNNTPD which can be dropped on
top of Mystic, that NNTP server is powerful and well developed only
thing is you have to manage a separate configuration from mystic.
Another person who could help things out a lot is Wilfred Van Velzen.
He is the developer of FMAIL nad FMAIL is open source as well. It may greatly enhance mystic if someone could get FMAIL to read/write
mystic's configuration directly like it does for Remoteaccess and
several other BBS Software that it supports. FMAIL is already
compatible with Mystic as it is, again you have to maintain a separate configuration file.
Mystic is good as it is now... but remember it's still in Alpha, and
soon (hopefully soon) G00R00 will come back to amaze us all... but I
don't see having every utility under one umbrella as a bad thing, but
why reinvent the wheel when there are other utilties out there that
are compatible with mystic and add to it strenghts not take away from them. Right now G00R00 is the single point of development... and
without him Mystic stands still, frozen in time. I pray that G00R00
is in good health and is enjoying the time with his family. I am
looking forward to his return.
Yes, g00r00 is the single point of development for Mystic. But as
you stated, not one single other utility author has opted to
assist with outside utilities. It sounds to me like you are
griping about g00r00 not being able to fix your issues; issues
that you have admitted can be done with external utilities. Why
then are you harping on Mystic and g00r00 when you should be
harping on other utility authors to make utilities that you find acceptable?
Avon can tell you I am pushing the envelope with mystic and I don't
think that is a bad thing.
To my mind you're just doing more messages and more bases and if
there's an issue with that in terms of how mystic handles those
numbers then let g00r00
To my mind you're just doing more messages and more bases and if there's an issue with that in terms of how mystic handles those numbers then let g00r00
I will probably have to burn my site to a CDRom and send it to him. I honestly think he will be interested in taking a look at it :-)
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