I'm surprise no one has talked about Star Trek Discovery yet. Did
anyone see the first of season 4? I did it seamed okay but I hope they
pick it up for the next one. Whats your thought?
Datalus

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On 23 Nov 2021 at 08:48a, Datalus pondered and said...

I'm surprise no one has talked about Star Trek Discovery yet. Did
anyone see the first of season 4? I did it seamed okay but I hope they pick it up for the next one. Whats your thought?
Datalus

I'll reply to this but move the thread over to FSX_VIDEO :)

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oh sorry!
Datalus

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On 24 Nov 2021 at 07:22p, Datalus pondered and said...

oh sorry!
Datalus

No stress :) Just wanted you to know there was an echo for that kinda stuff.

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Datalus wrote to All <=-

I'm surprise no one has talked about Star Trek Discovery yet. Did
anyone see the first of season 4? I did it seamed okay but I hope they pick it up for the next one. Whats your thought?

I'm not as excited for it as I was in the earlier seasons. Don't like the
31st century aesthetic as much. We'll see if it picks up. Saru needs to be
in the chair.

I am looking forward to "Strange New Worlds". I like the chemistry of the
crew of the Enterprise, hope to see some nods to TOS in it.


... Fifty Quatloos on the newcomer!
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On 23 Nov 2021 at 07:56a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

I'm not as excited for it as I was in the earlier seasons. Don't like
the 31st century aesthetic as much. We'll see if it picks up. Saru
needs to be in the chair.

watched EP1 and 2 today, will comment in the movies echo.

I am looking forward to "Strange New Worlds". I like the chemistry of
the crew of the Enterprise, hope to see some nods to TOS in it.

Same here :)

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I'm surprise no one has talked about Star Trek Discovery yet. Did
anyone see the first of season 4? I did it seamed okay but I hope they pick it up for the next one. Whats your thought?

Probably talking in the ST:D echo rather than here in the General echo?
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I'm surprise no one has talked about Star Trek Discovery yet. Did anyone see the first of season 4? I did it seamed okay but I hope the pick it up for the next one. Whats your thought?

Probably talking in the ST:D echo rather than here in the General echo?

OOPS. Thought I was still in the SFnet echoes. Apologies.
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I'm surprise no one has talked about Star Trek Discovery yet. Did

Probably talking in the ST:D echo rather than here in the General echo?

Yep already notified about it but thanks
Datalus

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I'm surprise no one has talked about Star Trek Discovery yet. Did
anyone see the first of season 4? I did it seamed okay but I hope they pick it up for the next one. Whats your thought?

...and now it's time for me to stop catching up on messages, and watch Discovery in case there are spoilers upcoming. :)

But I like the show and many of its characters. Michael has been a little one note, but the cast feels pretty relatable for me, since there are a lot of square pegs just living normal-ish lives, and that's much closer to who my friends are.

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Re: Re: Discovery
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Datalus on Tue Nov 23 2021 07:56 am

I'm not as excited for it as I was in the earlier seasons. Don't like the 31st century aesthetic as much. We'll see if it picks up. Saru needs to be in the chair.

I don't mind the 31st century aesthetic. I've wondered what direction they're going with Discovery though.. I imagine they may have skipped into the future to avoid having to deal with problems with established canon. Skipping that far ahead into the future seemed a little odd to me though. I keep wondering if they're going to eventually return to some point in the past again so that everything they've shown in the 31st centiry will be moot (somewhat like the series finale of TNG where the future presented to Picard ended up not happening).

I am looking forward to "Strange New Worlds". I like the chemistry of the crew of the Enterprise, hope to see some nods to TOS in it.

I feel like it's weird that they keep rehashing Kirk-era Star Trek and similar prequels. With Star Trek: Enterprise (taking place about 100 years before TOS), and then the JJ Abrams movies, Discovery, and now Strange New Worlds, I keep wondering why they're doing Kirk-era Star Trek so much. I think they've had several big missed opportunities - They could have made more movies after Nemesis involving the Voyager and/or Deep Space 9 crews. Also, there's about 80-100 years between TOS and TNG - it would be interesting to see a movie or TV series focusing on the Enterprise B or Enterprise C. But no, we keep getting more Kirk-era Star Trek..

Nightfox
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Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

I feel like it's weird that they keep rehashing Kirk-era Star Trek and similar prequels. With Star Trek: Enterprise (taking place about 100 years before TOS), and then the JJ Abrams movies, Discovery, and now Strange New Worlds, I keep wondering why they're doing Kirk-era Star
Trek so much.

Nostalgia?

Agreed, there are a lot of stories left to be told, some done well in beta canon.

Post-dominion is a huge one. They missed a chance with Captain Sulu and the Excelsior. I liked Alan Ruck as Captain Harriman. An early Picard commanding the Stargazer. Bonus points if you jump forward and DS9 and Bajor are now a thriving hub at the center of a sphere of influence.


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Re: Re: Discovery
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Wed Dec 08 2021 09:12 am

I feel like it's weird that they keep rehashing Kirk-era Star Trek
and similar prequels. With Star Trek: Enterprise (taking place
about 100 years before TOS), and then the JJ Abrams movies,
Discovery, and now Strange New Worlds, I keep wondering why they're
doing Kirk-era Star Trek so much.

Nostalgia?

Could be, but why does it seem like there isn't more nostalgia for TNG-era Trek?

Agreed, there are a lot of stories left to be told, some done well in beta canon.

Post-dominion is a huge one. They missed a chance with Captain Sulu and the Excelsior. I liked Alan Ruck as Captain Harriman. An early Picard commanding the Stargazer. Bonus points if you jump forward and DS9 and Bajor are now a thriving hub at the center of a sphere of influence.

I haven't looked at beta canon much at all in Star Trek. I think I'd heard that some of the beta Star Trek stories conflict with official canon - so I just haven't paid much attention to beta canon at all.

Nightfox
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Re: Re: Discovery
By: Nightfox to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu Dec 09 2021 08:53:26

about 100 years before TOS), and then the JJ Abrams movies,
Discovery, and now Strange New Worlds, I keep wondering why they're
doing Kirk-era Star Trek so much.

Nostalgia?

Could be, but why does it seem like there isn't more nostalgia for TNG-era Trek?

If they return to the TOS era, they can trot out iconic characters like Kirk, Spock, and Bones along with their catchphrases. Popular as TNG may be, TOS just occupies more space in the collective consciousness. That makes it easier to do a cheap nostalgic money-grab. Lots of non-Trekkies went to see the JJ movies, but I doubt if that was true for, say, Nemesis.

With 21 seasons of TV and a handful of movies, the TNG era was pretty well fleshed out and explored. Maybe that's keeping the nostalgia at bay. On the other hand, Lower Decks is set just after the TNG era, so that's something.

I'd have said that I'd rather they just moved further into the future, but now Discovery's jumped another 700 years ahead and it hasn't helped all that much.

I haven't looked at beta canon much at all in Star Trek. I think I'd heard that some of the beta Star Trek stories conflict with official canon - so I just haven't paid much attention to beta canon at all.

I read heaps of Trek novels when I was a kid and enjoyed them a lot. Some more than others. IIRC the "rule" is they're canon until contradicted on screen. I believe a few things have made it from books to the screen as well.

They're fairly self-contained stories, and I think they were required to be, so most of the time there isn't much discrepancy between the books and the TV shows / movies.

Trek canon and continuity are sloppy anyway, thanks to assorted prequels and timelines. At this point it's best to just evaluate each series / movie / book on its own merits with less attention to its place in the big picture.

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Re: Re: Discovery
By: echicken to Nightfox on Thu Dec 09 2021 06:51 pm

If they return to the TOS era, they can trot out iconic characters like Kirk, Spock, and Bones along with their catchphrases. Popular as TNG may be, TOS just occupies more space in the collective consciousness. That

TNG is more recent though, and I'd imagine there are a lot of younger viewers who probably watched more TNG than TOS.

makes it easier to do a cheap nostalgic money-grab. Lots of non-Trekkies went to see the JJ movies, but I doubt if that was true for, say, Nemesis.

I think Nemesis was probably the worst of the TNG movies, so it's probably understandable that not many people went to see it. I wouldn't mind much if Nemesis was removed from canon.. Generations and First Contact were my favorite TNG movies. Overall, they probably could have done better with the TNG movies to make them more popular and enjoyable to watch for many people.

With 21 seasons of TV and a handful of movies, the TNG era was pretty well fleshed out and explored. Maybe that's keeping the nostalgia at bay. On the other hand, Lower Decks is set just after the TNG era, so that's something.

I'd have said that I'd rather they just moved further into the future, but now Discovery's jumped another 700 years ahead and it hasn't helped all that much.

I agree. I'd like to see them move more into the future (rather than rehash Kirk's era). I'd also like to see them flesh out the period between TOS and TNG, since we didn't get to see that era much at all. All we had of that was one episode of TNG (Yesterday's Enterprise) where we saw the Enterprise C and the intro to Generations where we saw the Enterprise B briefly.

Even with TOS having just 3 seasons and 6 movies, I feel like Kirk and his crew were fairly well fleshed out. It feels like they keep stepping backwards to do Kirk's era again and again.

Nightfox
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Re: Re: Discovery
By: Nightfox to echicken on Thu Dec 09 2021 12:22:44

TNG is more recent though, and I'd imagine there are a lot of younger viewers who probably watched more TNG than TOS.

True, but if you want to draw in as broad an audience as possible, I still think that TOS' icons are more instantly recognizable to more people, from young to old. (So maybe I'm not arguing that it's nostalgia-driven, but an attempt to capitalize on a brand.)

I think Nemesis was probably the worst of the TNG movies, so it's probably

Yep. Not that Insurrection was so great either.

rehash Kirk's era). I'd also like to see them flesh out the period between TOS and TNG, since we didn't get to see that era much at all. All we had

This limits what they can do, since we've already seen the future of that time period. That's fine if they do small-scale stories that don't have major repercussions in the broader universe, and don't introduce wacky new technology that doesn't fit with continuity. If they kept that in mind, it could be great.

And like, I don't want to be a stickler for canon and continuity, but eventually there are too many discrepancies and it distracts me from enjoying the story.

In Discovery, for example, I didn't expect them to reduce the set design to TOS level blinking lights and chunky buttons, but if I'm looking at wildly advanced technology vs. TOS, on top of weird Klingons, on top of Section 31 being all over the damn place, etc., it gets to be too much. A whole lot of that stuff could be avoided if they'd just set it, say, 25+ years after TNG. (And really, virtually nothing about the story really demanded that it take place during that era.)

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A whole lot of that stuff could be avoided if they'd just set it, say,
25+ years after TNG. (And really, virtually nothing about the story
really demanded that it take place during that era.)

Not to be too spoilery, since this is old news, but I do kind of wonder if
the pitch meeting started off with someone throwing out, "Hey, what if Spock had a sibling?" and they went from there.

So it's not that it _had_ to be set then, but it may have been where they started their thought process.

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Re: Re: Discovery
By: echicken to Nightfox on Thu Dec 09 2021 08:56 pm

And like, I don't want to be a stickler for canon and continuity, but eventually there are too many discrepancies and it distracts me from enjoying the story.

In Discovery, for example, I didn't expect them to reduce the set design to TOS level blinking lights and chunky buttons, but if I'm looking at wildly advanced technology vs. TOS, on top of weird Klingons, on top of Section 31 being all over the damn place, etc., it gets to be too much. A

It would be good if they'd keep things to continuity better. Things like that have been done in Star Trek for quite a while though. They changed the Klingons in the first Star Trek movie - They didn't originally have forehead ridges in TOS. Also, in Star Trek: Enterprise (2001-2005), one of the common complaints was that it looked too modern, even though it was set 100 years before TOS.

The weird looking Klingons and advanced technology in Discovery seemed weird to me too.

whole lot of that stuff could be avoided if they'd just set it, say, 25+ years after TNG. (And really, virtually nothing about the story really demanded that it take place during that era.)

Or by having better producers that would respect canon and continuity better.

Nightfox
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Re: Re: Discovery
By: Adept to echicken on Thu Dec 09 2021 22:23:50

Not to be too spoilery, since this is old news, but I do kind of wonder if the pitch meeting started off with someone throwing out, "Hey, what if Spock had a sibling?" and they went from there.

Which is funny, because we already saw a version of that "what if" in one of the least popular TOS movies. Maybe they'll get it right the third time around when we inevitably meet yet forgotten Spock sibling.

So it's not that it _had_ to be set then, but it may have been where they started their thought process.

What I recall from the hype prior to the show's premiere, was that they wanted to explore "an event" in the franchise's history. Said event had been mentioned but never in detail, so they wanted to go back to that time period to tell a particular story.

Looking back on what I remember of the first season, I guess the event was ... war with the Klingons ... or something? I'm not sure. It didn't leave me feeling satified that some ragged hole in Trek lore had finally been patched over.

I think the Spock-sibling thing just got thrown in (along with a bunch of other unnecessary "fan-service" junk) because a bunch of dorks got together and said "Wouldn't it be SO COOL if ...", or they thought the audience would gobble it up, or both.

Not that I hate fan-service; it's just very possible to overdo it, or do it wrong, and they ... do both of those things on this show. Meanwhile, Lower Decks manages to do it in a way that somehow doesn't bug me. Go figure.

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Re: Re: Discovery
By: Nightfox to echicken on Thu Dec 09 2021 16:51:16

that have been done in Star Trek for quite a while though. They changed the Klingons in the first Star Trek movie - They didn't originally have

The TMP Klingon redesign was said to reflect what they were "supposed" to look like, but the TOS budget hadn't permitted. This time around, they felt like they could do even better. The precedent had been set, so I don't have a problem with them making the attempt.

Unfortunately, the result was not worth the distraction. This iteration of the species doesn't look, speak, or behave like the Klingons we've seen in the past. Which ... is fine, I guess they're a diverse people ... but could just as easily have been a different species in a different time period.

forehead ridges in TOS. Also, in Star Trek: Enterprise (2001-2005), one of the common complaints was that it looked too modern, even though it was set 100 years before TOS.

Enterprise fell into the same trap re: looking too modern, and it bugged me, but it wasn't so glaring that it left me feeling confused. I wasn't a huge fan, but the show had some redeeming qualities.

I would forgive a lot of Discovery's bullshit if they just ... told a decent Star Trek story once in a while. If I were caught up in the storytelling, none of this crap would cross my mind.

Or by having better producers that would respect canon and continuity better.

Canon is tricky in such a sprawling franchise as this. I'd like to see it treated with care, but I can forgive a lot of mistakes. Up to a point.

Messing with continuity on the other hand is pretty easy to avoid. Just don't do it unless you have a *good* reason! I still don't see why they did.

At the end of the day it's not a big deal. Nobody's forcing me to watch it, but the Trek geek in me enjoys poking fun at it and poking holes in it. Evidently there are other people out there who actually enjoy watching the show, which is great for them if not for me. I don't begrudge anyone that.

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Re: Re: Discovery
By: echicken to Nightfox on Fri Dec 10 2021 04:17 am

that have been done in Star Trek for quite a while though. They
changed the Klingons in the first Star Trek movie - They didn't
originally have

The TMP Klingon redesign was said to reflect what they were "supposed" to look like, but the TOS budget hadn't permitted. This time around, they felt like they could do even better. The precedent had been set, so I don't have a problem with them making the attempt.

Unfortunately, the result was not worth the distraction. This iteration of the species doesn't look, speak, or behave like the Klingons we've seen in the past. Which ... is fine, I guess they're a diverse people ... but could just as easily have been a different species in a different time period.

I'm not sure why they wanted to redesign the Klingons for Discovery at all. I thought they looked good enough (no need to make them look better), and as you said, the Klingons in Discovery also don't speak or behave like the Klingons we're used to seeing.

I would forgive a lot of Discovery's bullshit if they just ... told a decent Star Trek story once in a while. If I were caught up in the storytelling, none of this crap would cross my mind.

I've watched Discovery and Picard, and I'll admit I'm not as excited about them as I used to be for the older Star Trek shows. I can understand they want to do something different, but it just doesn't seem the same - especially with the inconsistencies in canon in Discovery (IMO Picard follows canon a lot better - probably because it's set after Nemesis).

One thing I wish they'd do is make it more episodic, like what The Orville has done. It seems like most TV shows these days are such that every episode is "to be continued" and the whole season is one long story arc. You can't miss an episode.

At the end of the day it's not a big deal. Nobody's forcing me to watch it, but the Trek geek in me enjoys poking fun at it and poking holes in it. Evidently there are other people out there who actually enjoy watching the show, which is great for them if not for me. I don't begrudge anyone that.

Yeah, I wish they'd have done something a bit better.

Nightfox
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Re: Re: Discovery
By: Nightfox to echicken on Fri Dec 10 2021 09:32:50

I'm not sure why they wanted to redesign the Klingons for Discovery at all. I thought they looked good enough (no need to make them look better),

I think the reason both times was that they wanted the Klingons to look more fearsome, and current budgets permitted them to do more.

At the end of the day, Trek aliens are humans with different ears or foreheads or some other small detail. The make-up shouldn't be so bad that it's distracting, but it doesn't need to be too special. It's just there to tell us "this is an alien" and maybe hint at some of their traits (which is ... problematic in its own way).

IIRC Rodenberry had a rule that the make-up should never get so crazy that the actor's face isn't visible. A good actor can bring a lot to a performance in their facial expressions and such, and you wouldn't want to lose that.

So ... if they want the Klingons to be scary, why not just make them act scary?

I've watched Discovery and Picard, and I'll admit I'm not as excited about them as I used to be for the older Star Trek shows. I can understand they want to do something different, but it just doesn't seem the same -

Yeah, likewise. I'm open to "different", but I think I want a different different. I keep watching these shows, but they don't really do it for me.

Picard had a *lot* of problems, and that's a whole other discussion.

One thing I wish they'd do is make it more episodic, like what The Orville has done. It seems like most TV shows these days are such that every episode is "to be continued" and the whole season is one long story arc. You can't miss an episode.

I think I'd like to see a hybrid. Keep the season-long or multi-season stories, but don't make them the entire focus. Each episode could be reasonably self-contained but also touch upon and contribute to the larger story. DS9 did a decent job of this, I think, as have some other shows.

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Re: Re: Discovery
By: echicken to Nightfox on Fri Dec 10 2021 06:40 pm

One thing I wish they'd do is make it more episodic, like what The
Orville has done. It seems like most TV shows these days are such
that every episode is "to be continued" and the whole season is one
long story arc. You can't miss an episode.

I think I'd like to see a hybrid. Keep the season-long or multi-season stories, but don't make them the entire focus. Each episode could be reasonably self-contained but also touch upon and contribute to the larger story. DS9 did a decent job of this, I think, as have some other shows.

Yeah, I think DS9 did a decent job of that.

I sometimes thought it was funny that with the more episodic style (as with TNG), everything was pretty much wrapped up and solved by the end of the episode. The Enterprise D survived through the whole series, only to be blown up & crashed in the movie Generations.

Even DS9 had episodes where things got miraculously wrapped up and solved by the end of the episode. Recently I've been watching DS9 again, and last night I saw the episode where Miles (O'Brien) & Keiko's daughter Molly goes through some kind of a time portal and they get her back after she aged 10 years. Then within the last ~5 minutes of the episode, they send the older Molly back, who just happened to go back to when young Molly stepped through, so young Molly was able to go back through the portal and return to Miles & Molly.

Nightfox
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Re: Re: Discovery
By: Nightfox to echicken on Fri Dec 10 2021 12:12:25

I sometimes thought it was funny that with the more episodic style (as with TNG), everything was pretty much wrapped up and solved by the end of the episode. The Enterprise D survived through the whole series, only to be blown up & crashed in the movie Generations.

Even DS9 had episodes where things got miraculously wrapped up and solved by the end of the episode. Recently I've been watching DS9 again, and last

Yep, for the most part, especially in TNG, they hit the reset button after every episode. At the time this was probably desirable and made it easier to sell a syndicated TV show. Audiences didn't need to make a huge commitment, there was no great pressure to air everything in order.

This was particularly disappointing with Voyager. Considering the premise of the show, I'd have liked to see more accrued wear and tear on the ship and crew, more clever solutions to their long-term problems, a more drawn-out process of integrating the two crews, etc.

It's funny what some of the characters go through in a given episode, and then they seem entirely back to normal a week later - then in other cases there's a pregnancy, or recovery from some trauma, or whatever, which takes most of a season to resolve.

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changed the Klingons in the first Star Trek movie - They didn't
originally have forehead ridges in TOS. Also, in Star Trek: Enterprise

"We don't talk about that." -Warf

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Re: Re: Discovery
By: phigan to Nightfox on Sat Dec 11 2021 12:42 pm

changed the Klingons in the first Star Trek movie - They didn't
originally have forehead ridges in TOS. Also, in Star Trek:
Enterprise

"We don't talk about that." -Warf

*Worf ;)

Nightfox
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The weird looking Klingons and advanced technology in Discovery seemed weird to me too.

It was kind of jarring when they talked about the spiffy new uniforms people wore at various points, by which they mean the uniforms used in TOS. They really had a different vibe than the rest of the costuming. Which, mind you, does make complete sense. But hard to keep continuity with what seems futuristic to people in eras separated by almost 60 years.

Or by having better producers that would respect canon and continuity better.

...speaking of boldly going where no one has gone before...

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echicken wrote to Nightfox <=-

IIRC Rodenberry had a rule that the make-up should never get so crazy
that the actor's face isn't visible. A good actor can bring a lot to a performance in their facial expressions and such, and you wouldn't want
to lose that.

That being said, I was really impressed with The Mandalorian. The actor did
a great job conveying emotion wearing a helmet!


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On 12 Dec 2021 at 03:49p, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

That being said, I was really impressed with The Mandalorian. The actor did a great job conveying emotion wearing a helmet!

I only knew there was an actor in there when he took it off ;-)

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"We don't talk about that." -Warf

*Worf ;)

Haha dangit, I was even thinking "Make sure to spell it right" when I typed that!

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I'm surprise no one has talked about Star Trek Discovery yet. Did
anyone see the first of season 4? I did it seamed okay but I hope
they pick it up for the next one. Whats your thought?

Discovery is horrible. It would be ok if it would not call itself
StarTrek.

i want the episodical StarTrek back. Exploration. New civilisations etc.
Not a long Blockbuster splitted into 10 episodes.

StarTrek Lower Decks is 20x more StarTrek compared to Discovery. Prodigy
seems good too.

Mindsurfer

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