Hello iPhone users..
What say you about Apple's plan for your phones?
On 06 Aug 2021 at 10:41p, Ogg pondered and said...
Hello iPhone users..
What say you about Apple's plan for your phones?
If they can scan for X then I guess they can (or do) scan for Y,Z etc.
too?
Hello iPhone users..
What say you about Apple's plan for your phones?
"The changes will roll out "later this year in updates to iOS
15, iPadOS 15, watchOS 8, and macOS Monterey," Apple said.
Apple will also deploy software that can analyze images in the
Messages application"
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/08/apple-explains-how- iphones-will-scan-photos-for-child-sexual-abuse-images/
https://tinyurl.com/yzdv24p5
Ogg wrote to All <=-
What say you about Apple's plan for your phones?
Oli wrote to Avon <=-
I know why I never 'owned' an iPhone. Apple is a control freak. But
people (especially in the US) embrace surveillance and don't care that much about privacy. Even more to 'protect' their children.
Oli wrote to Avon <=-
I know why I never 'owned' an iPhone. Apple is a control freak. But
people (especially in the US) embrace surveillance and don't care that much about privacy. Even more to 'protect' their children.
Avon wrote to Ogg <=-
What say you about Apple's plan for your phones?
If they can scan for X then I guess they can (or do) scan for Y,Z etc. too?
What say you about Apple's plan for your phones?
As I always say, whenever there's any sort of a backdoor
crackers will find it and exploit it. Not good.
Ogg wrote to All <=-
What say you about Apple's plan for your phones?
Ogg wrote to N1uro <=-
Who would supply the photos? I would suspect that the CIA or
NSA are heavily involved in the project.
Ogg wrote to N1uro <=-
I see this as a golden opportunity for the unscrupulous to
sabotage other people (politicians, dissidents, competitors,
etc) by injecting suspect photos onto victim's phones. And
when this "false positive" is detected, the victim's account/
phone is suspended until they appeal. Even that process seems
backwards. Why should "the victim" appeal when it hasn't even
been determined that the photos were genuinely acquired in the
first place.
The system assumes that if such photos exist on your phone,
then you are immediately quilty. You can be sure that enemies
will try to sabotoge one another this way.
The analysis system claims that it will assign a hash for the
porn photos. I can't imagine what kind of human it takes to
even be involved in this project at Apple. They would have to
witness thousands of photos to confirm results.
Who would supply the photos? I would suspect that the CIA or
NSA are heavily involved in the project.
What would stop a 3rd-party app "injecting" hashes unto
unsuspecting phones?
Anyway.. I see a lot that can go wrong with the implementation.
But this is it! I think no platform of our time can treat the users so badly. I have been a bad boy and I need my Master megacorp to punish
me, so I am gonna purchase 30 iPhones right now. I can't wait to the models that spank your ass!
Anyway.. I see a lot that can go wrong with the implementation.
As do I... not to mention countries where this idea is illegal in nature. Just not a good idea at all.
Exploitation of children goes beyond sexual events... it also includes such things as what Apple is claiming. Sad state of society we're in.
I know why I never 'owned' an iPhone. Apple is a control freak. But people (especially in the US) embrace surveillance and don't care that much about privacy. Even more to 'protect' their children.
I've heard Apple has tended to value user privacy though (at least
they've said they do), so this news seems interesting.
And a lot of people seem to think it's okay because they "have nothing to hide".
I've heard Apple has tended to value user privacy though (at least
they've said they do), so this news seems interesting.
It's a worldwide database of known child pictures. From what I
read in the article they don't actualy /have/ the pictures, they
have some math doodad that can detect the pictures.
I read about it on engadget when they reported the new feature.
Shawn
I've heard Apple has tended to value user privacy though (at least
they've said they do), so this news seems interesting.
The cynical version of that is that Apple is a hardware company, thus is interested in what gets people to buy hardware.
But all the same, "Oh, your phone is going to spy on you, checking to make sure you don't have any illegal images" does not seem like something overly positive for a hardware company.
And a lot of people seem to think it's okay because they "have
nothing to hide".
I have nothing to hide, but I really wouldn't want somebody snooping through my camera roll. I mean, all you're going to find are pictures of cats, food & bunch of computer equipment (for serial numbers, network port locations etc) - But all the same, I'd rather not have someone digging through.
Re: Apple will start scanning iPhone images
By: Oli to Avon on Sat Aug 07 2021 07:35 am
I know why I never 'owned' an iPhone. Apple is a control freak. But peo (especially in the US) embrace surveillance and don't care that much ab privacy. Even more to 'protect' their children.
And a lot of people seem to think it's okay because they "have nothing to hide".
I've heard Apple has tended to value user privacy though (at least they've s they do), so this news seems interesting.
Nightfox
I've heard Apple has tended to value user privacy though (at least they've said they do), so this news seems interesting.
The cynical version of that is that Apple is a hardware company, thus is interested in what gets people to buy hardware.
Google is an advertising company, thus is interested in what gets advertiser to buy ads.
But all the same, "Oh, your phone is going to spy on you, checking to make sure you don't have any illegal images" does not seem like something overly positive for a hardware company.
It's a worldwide database of known child pictures. From what I
read in the article they don't actualy /have/ the pictures, they
have some math doodad that can detect the pictures.
I read about it on engadget when they reported the new feature.
Shawn
My guess is they have hash #s on previously exising pics they have captureed from pizzagate computers and such. they probably keep the hash #s in the dat base and run the hash on the new pics they find and compair agains the existing hash #s. just i guess.
Thanks
- Gamecube Buddy
telnet --<{bbs.hive32.com:23333}>--
[...] they probably keep the hash #s in the dat base and
run the hash on the new pics they find and compair agains
the existing hash #s. just i guess.
If they are serious about pinpointing known bad pictures, I
suppose what they do is to use high level scanning for
analyzing properties of the picture and generate a hash out
of those properties, then compare such hash to a database
of known blacklisted pictures.
However, if that is the case, you increase the chances of
getting false positives. I suppose the idea is that they
intend an human operator to review any matching or
suspicious picture, but that is still not pretty, because
it means Apple is setting their systems up to have your
phone contents reviewed by humans.
Re: re: Apple will start scanning
By: gcubebuddy to Tiny on Mon Aug 09 2021 02:52 pm
If they use raw hashes for comparison, I think the scanner will be very weak.It's a worldwide database of known child pictures. From what I read in the article they don't actualy /have/ the pictures, they have some math doodad that can detect the pictures.My guess is they have hash #s on previously exising pics they have capt from pizzagate computers and such. they probably keep the hash #s in th base and run the hash on the new pics they find and compair agains the existing hash #s. just i guess.
I read about it on engadget when they reported the new feature. Shawn
Thanks
- Gamecube Buddy
If they are serious about pinpointing known bad pictures, I suppose what they do is to use high level scanning for analyzing properties of the picture and generate a hash out of those properties, then compare such hash to a database of known blacklisted pictures.
However, if that is the case, you increase the chances of getting false positives. I suppose the idea is that they intend an human operator to review any matching or suspicious picture, but that is still not pretty, because it means Apple is setting their systems up to have your phone contents reviewed by humans.
I have a new slogan for Apple: "Purchase if Masochist."
As I always say, whenever there's any sort of a backdoor crackers will
If Apple can sell people to the FBI and make some quick buck, they will do. Megacorporations don't like to define themselves as a "Phone
company" or a "Toy company". They define themselves as "Manufacturers"
or "Service providers". If Apple thought they could make money selling nuclear submarines, they would.
I have nothing to hide, but I really wouldn't want somebody snooping through my camera roll. I mean, all you're going to find are pictures
of cats, food & bunch of computer equipment (for serial numbers, network port locations etc) - But all the same, I'd rather not have someone
All that processing or transfers to the mother ship is going to
bog down people's phones.
[...] since the current proposal will send images to
someone at Apple to check (which seems likely illegal),
there's a pedophile in the company who thought this was a
good idea, and a way to get content while hoisting the flag
of anti-pedophilia.
I have nothing to hide, but I really wouldn't want somebody snooping
through my camera roll. [...]
And if I take pictures of documents that could be used to
take out a credit card in my name, I'm doing it with the
thought that anyone looking at those without my permission
are doing it illegally.
And all this aside, it's not like their child porn hashes
are going to be fool proof.
Adept wrote to Ogg <=-
My understanding is that they're only scanning photos uploaded to the automatic photo uploading service they have, and that is turned on by default.
So the additional data and processing are probably minimal.
I have plenty to hide -- just nothing illegal.
If anything, we are guilty by default.
I have plenty to hide -- just nothing illegal.
And if I take pictures of documents that could be used to take out a credit card in my name, I'm doing it with the thought that anyone
looking at those without my permission are doing it illegally.
And all this aside, it's not like their child porn hashes are going to be fool proof.
I hear that taking pictures of cheques is now a defacto 1st
step to deposit them electronically.
Arelor wrote to N1uro <=-
Do you know what they say of blackhat converences? They say that you shoul¤d never show up with a smartphone, because somebody will exploit
it and fill it with gay porn for fun.
The problem with automated remote scanners is that somebody may decide
to plant an image that will trigger an alarm and get you screwed. Apple itself has root on the device, for starters, but there are lots of ways
to inject unwanted files in a phone.
gcubebuddy wrote to N1uro <=-
Interesting thought. considering most parents just hand their kids
their iPhone or iPad to keep their kids occupied.
I rarely get cheques anymore, but every now & then I do get
one. First thing I do is load my banking app and take a
picture if of the front & back and BOOM, it's deposited.
Very convenient!
There are literally thousands of laws applying to a given individual in any Western country in a given moment of time. Nobody knows all the laws that apply to them. Not even lawyers.
Don't you get the GST or Trillium credit/refunds as cheques?
Anyway.. my whole point is that it's no one's business what
photos you take or keep on your phone.
Anyway.. my whole point is that it's no one's business
what photos you take or keep on your phone.
Yup, I just heard a quote on the Security Now podcast this
morning that I think fits:
Last lines from Netflix's movie Anon:
"I don't have anything to hide, I just don't have anything
I want you to see."
Anyway.. my whole point is that it's no one's business
what photos you take or keep on your phone.
Last lines from Netflix's movie Anon:
"I don't have anything to hide, I just don't have anything
I want you to see."
Heheh.. Are you going to watch it?
Not sure if you've seen this little apropos clip:
A lament on privacy from 1972..
https://kolico.ca/mpg/TGC1972-privacy.mp4
Ogg wrote to Arelor <=-
All that processing or transfers to the mother ship is going to
bog down people's phones.
Spectre wrote to Ogg <=-
Yeah Apple have been getting steadily more Big Brother is watching, for the last 30years... connectivity just makes it more possible now.
Utopian Galt wrote to Tiny <=-
People are afraid that China, Russia or even our own state actors (USA/CAN/UK etc) will use it against us.
Adept wrote to Arelor <=-
Agreed, but companies also have a history of protecting the cash cows
they already have (and oftentimes to their detriment).
Adept wrote to Warpslide <=-
I have plenty to hide -- just nothing illegal.
Tiny wrote to Adept <=-
Adept wrote to Ogg <=-
I don't use the icloud feature for anything. I have it fully disabled. Not because I don't trust it, but because I don't have anything on
my phone that needs to be backed up. If I take a picture it's mostly
to remind me to do something, or I saw something funny.
Arelor wrote to Adept <=-
Next time you say you have nothing illegal to hide, think again.
If anything, we are guilty by default.
Warpslide wrote to Ogg <=-
I rarely get cheques anymore, but every now & then I do get one. First thing I do is load my banking app and take a picture if of the front & back and BOOM, it's deposited. Very convenient!
... All of my certifications are self-signed.
There are literally thousands of laws applying to a given individual in any Western country
a given moment of time. Nobody knows all the laws that apply to them. Not even lawyers.
Ah, yeah, good point. We live in a Kafkaesque world.
I'm sure I break laws all the time, with my computer -- just that most of the time I'm taking a
photo I'm pretty sure I'm in the clear, barring complete ignorance.
But I guess I'm in Germany, now (well, until Sunday morning), and there are probably laws agains
taking photos in certain circumstances that I'm
entirely unaware of.
Ogg wrote to Arelor <=-
All that processing or transfers to the mother ship is going to
bog down people's phones.
and data ingestion will be an unfunded mandate for the user.
"I signed up for the lowest 1gb data plan, and half of that is used to monitor my camera roll..."
... No ceremonies are necessary.
There was an interesting article I'll have to dig up now about how Sony Music was the reason why a "Sony MP3man" didn't become the dominant
music player. The music side drove reliance on DRM into the design,
while other players of the time that didn't have a media company calling the shots did not - and the market chose otherwise.
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Tiny <=-
Yeah, I go through my photos directory looking for artistic photos to
put on my web site and have to sort through dozens of photos of serial numbers, BIOS configs, cable rack photos, serial numbers and shipping labels.
Exactly. Scanning for pictures of potential child exploitation sounds good, but it could just as easily be used to expose other behaviors a government deems inappropriate. It was not that long ago that same-sex relationships were forbidden in some coutries (and probably still are). The "big brother" possibilities are endless.
followed it all too closely. I guess it could be a case of a corporate tryin to do good and not thinking it through enough?
Arelor wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
People already pays for the bandwidth used to serve them more ads than content. I think that is not a problem for the consumer since they are already used to third parties raping their data plans in the butt until the data plan cannot sit anymore.
Adept wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
I remember knowing lots of details, and being amazed that you could
peel away the nastiness like an onion, and there kept being yet another layer of really nasty things they were doing, and somehow people
thought they were on the "good" side somehow.
They're scanning iCloud, aren't they? So, the price for free photo storage is monitoring?
Why am I thinking of the story arc in "SIlicon Valley", when a proof-of- concept app to search for food by photo could only determine "hot dog" or "not hot dog", and he ended up selling it to snapchat to help filter out dick picks?
Then again, I grew up on an internet where people kept open SMTP servers as a community service and remember seeing the first SPAM on usenet. How far we've come.
poindexter wrote (2021-08-13):
Then again, I grew up on an internet where people kept open SMTP server as a community service and remember seeing the first SPAM on usenet. Ho far we've come.
I wonder how the next level of inefficient / bloated / annoying / useless wi look like.
Avon wrote to Blue White <=-
Exactly. Scanning for pictures of potential child exploitation sounds good, but it could just as easily be used to expose other behaviors a government deems inappropriate. It was not that long ago that same-sex relationships were forbidden in some coutries (and probably still are). The "big brother" possibilities are endless.
Seems like some recent comments from their spokespeople make it out
like they (Apple) feel misunderstood. I'm really not sure. To be honest
I have not followed it all too closely. I guess it could be a case of a corporate trying to do good and not thinking it through enough?
A couple of articles, the first is mostly a reference to the second,
along with some additional insights:
https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-apples-child-protection-feat ures-spark-concern-within-its-own-ranks-2021-08-12/
"Apple employees have flooded an Apple internal Slack channel with more
than 800 messages on the plan announced a week ago, workers who asked
not to be identified told Reuters. Many expressed worries that the
feature could be exploited by repressive governments looking to find
other material for censorship or arrests, according to workers who saw
the days-long thread.
"Past security changes at Apple have also prompted concern among
employees, but the volume and duration of the new debate is surprising,
the workers said. Some posters worried that Apple is damaging its
leading reputation for protecting privacy."
https://www.osnews.com/story/133821/apples-child-protection-features-spar k-concern-within-its-own-ranks/
"Its a complete 180 from Apples behaviour and statements (in
western markets) of course employees are going to be worried. Ive
been warning for years that Apples position on privacy was nothing
more than a marketing ploy, and now Apple employees, too, get a taste of their own medicine that theyve been selling in China and various
other totalitarian regimes."
Considering past reports regarding Apple and Google assisting the
Chinese government in their spying on their own people, I am surprised
that the Apple employees are just catching onto the idea that their tech "could be exploited by repressive governments" for nefarious means.
Maybe they just didn't believe the reports before now?
#
My understanding is that they're only scanning photos
uploaded to the automatic photo uploading service they
have, and that is turned on by default.
So the additional data and processing are probably minimal.
If that is the case, is that still less bad? It still seems
unethical especially when their algorithm could produce a false positive.
The only good apple is the apple my horses like.
Oli wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
I wonder how the next level of inefficient / bloated / annoying /
useless will look like.
Spectre wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Shrug. As discussed before, putting data out there on someone elses
server still boggles my mind. The latest Apple equipment I own is a MacClassic with something around MacOS 7 on it, and I only have that
for AppleTalk with the IIgs.
to a IIci, to a Quadra 700, to a Quadra 610, and finally, when I'd left, a IIfx. It was a step back in a way, but I always wanted to use one of
Arelor wrote to Blue White <=-
The only good apple is the apple my horses like.
Last lines from Netflix's movie Anon:
"I don't have anything to hide, I just don't have
anything I want you to see."
Heheh.. Are you going to watch it?
I hadn't heard of it before, it looks like it's from 2018.
It looks sci-fi-y and futuristic, so right up my alley.
I'll add it to my queue for maybe this weekend.
https://kolico.ca/mpg/TGC1972-privacy.mp4
"I'd put my own family, anyone, in a spotlight naked to
protect this country"
"And who decides when it's necessary?"
"I do."
Powerful stuff. I certainly wouldn't want to be put in a
spotlight wearing my birthday suit... *blush*
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